Nicole Brooks (Realtor.com) - Night and Day

Speaker 1: Maybe big data has gotten too big. Whether you're a B2B marketer or a consumer brand, your data needs to be viable, relevant and accessible, so that Stirista can help you retain customers, acquire customers and make it personal.

Vin: Welcome to The Marketing Stir Podcast by Stirista, probably the most entertaining marketing podcast you're going to put in your ear. I'm Vin, the producer here at Stirista. The goal of this podcast is to chat with industry leaders and get their takes on the current challenges of the market, and we'll have a little fun along the way. In today's episode, Ajay and Vincent chat with Nicole Brooks, Senior Director, Brand and Customer Marketing at realtor. com. She talks about how forming relationships between the brand and customers is very important, and how feedback and communication benefit all parties. Ajay looks forward to a busy week, and he and Vincent face off in Fantasy Football. Give it a listen.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Stirista's, The Marketing Stir. I am your happy host, Vincent Pietrafesa, the Vice President of B2B Products and Partnerships here at Stirista, and still interim general manager. They're not taking that title away from me, I'm rocking and rolling over here. Oh my goodness, it's so great to be back. Let's take one second. Three seconds, 10 seconds. Stirista, who are we? If you are one of our amazing listeners already, but if you're not, we are a marketing technology company. We own our own business to business data, business to consumer data. We help people access that data to help them get new customers through our... We send our own email, we have our own DSP, connect the TV display. Email me, that is how confident I am. Vincent @ stirista. com. I just gave you my email address. Boy, was that a mistake? I'm kidding. It's not. Email me, I love all the things that you email me and I love my co- host, ladies and gentlemen. I am going to see him. He's coming to New York very soon. Mr. Ajay Gupta. What's up Ajay?

Ajay Gupta: Hey Vincent, it's been pretty busy and looking forward to another busy week next week, but I did have a spectacular Fantasy win this past weekend. So I don't know if you noticed.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I noticed, but guess who you play this week? You play yours truly.

Ajay Gupta: I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up.

Vincent Pietrafesa: No. Well, that all depends. I didn't play you yet. I bet you if you win, you're going to bring it up. I'll guarantee that, ladies and gentlemen.

Ajay Gupta: No, that doesn't sound like me at all.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Not at all. It doesn't sound like me either. That's the first thing I'll bring up on the next episode and you'll know who wins based on if I bring it up or not. So Ajay's never played in his life, and then he reads a book cover to cover. Of course he does, who does that? My CEO. And now he is fantastic at fantasy football. It's not fair. I wish I'd like to read like you did. If I was a reader, I would be even better.

Ajay Gupta: Yeah, you might be doing better in the Fantasy league if you'd read a couple of books.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I know, exactly. I just like the ones with the pictures. Good thing I have a five and a two year old, I'm like, " Oh, I got this. Cat In A Hat, that's easy. I got it." But it's great. You're going to be here for ad week. By the time this comes out, ad week will already happen. But also ladies and gentlemen, our Stirista Virtual Summit December 8th that it will be here. A lot of great guests on that as well. So it should be fun. And it's our third annual summit, so that will be amazing as well. But you know what else is amazing, Ajay? And I say this every episode and I mean it, our guests, the people we get to talk to, it's amazing. And I love the perspective that we're going to get today because it is an industry we haven't tackled yet here on The Marketing Stir. Hundreds of episodes and how did we miss it? That's my fault, but they're here today. She is here today. We're talking to a realtor. com, realtor. com. You know realtor. com. Ladies and gentlemen, please, a warm Marketing Stir welcome. Senior director, brand and customer marketing at realtor. com, Nicole Brooks, what's going on, Nicole?

Nicole Brooks: Hey Vincent, hey Ajay. Thanks for having me and for just all of the great energy this morning. I'm excited to be here.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, thank you. This is my energy all the time. You think it's fake. It is not fake. Just you can see my cohost smiling because he knows this is him all the time. And it's pretty annoying I guess. But it's me and we're happy to have you. Thank you for matching our energy. This is amazing. I love that background of yours. That's a real background, huh? Wallpaper and everything. I love it.

Nicole Brooks: Thank you. Yeah, I got to spice up the zoom calls somehow.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I love it. That's great. And Nicole's calling in from Austin. We got the Austin San Antonio connection. I'm here in New York City, We're cooking over here, we're cooking. Nicole, let's get right into it. realtor. com is so interesting. And again, it's something that we haven't tackled on the podcast here because look, I know very much about the world of real estate only because I live in New York City and real estate is in insane here. It is insane. I'm like, " How is that so much money?" But anyway, we'll get to that at another point. But Nicole, for people who don't know realtor. com, tell us about the company. Talk to me about your role. Your role is very specific. It's one of the more specific roles we have on here, so I'd love to unwrap that.

Nicole Brooks: Of course. So I'm hopeful most people listening have at least heard of realtor. com. But if not, we are a leading real estate portal and really we're a dual- sided marketplace that connects buyers, sellers, renters with the professionals they need to help them with all of their real estate needs. So realtors really evolved over the past couple of years. Years ago we really started as a search portal where buyers would come to look at property, look at their dream home, but maybe they didn't see us as somewhere where they'd actually find their home and buy their home and move through the purchasing process. So over the years we've grown into so much more than just a search and discover portal. We really strive to provide consumers with choice at every stage and to educate them and show all of their options to purchase, rent, sell, refinance, get their pre- approvals, really whatever they need. And then on the industry side, we partner with agents, brokers, loan officers, builders, and more really to again, find those professionals that are going to help the consumers that come to our site. So for me, as a senior director of brand and customer marketing, I'm actually on the B2B side, so I really focus on that industry side of the business. So under me is the B2B brand and all activities that would influence the brand perception of realtor. com with our industry partners. So I own our brand awareness and perception metrics and from a day to day perspective that really looks like owning things like our organic social content marketing, our B2B marketing website, any large scale brand campaigns that we run to influence perception and really ensure our partners see realtor. com as someone that they want to work with. So, that's the brand side. And then on the customer side of the house, that really consists of optimizing the customer experience and unifying the customer journey across our various products and across the customer life cycles. So the scope would include driving engagement, driving product adoption and usage, making sure our partners know how to be successful with our products. And really for metrics we look at CSAT, LTV, churn, again, product engagement metrics. So day to day it's a lot of onboarding, nurture journeys, ongoing customer coms, like newsletters and product releases, go to market campaigns, product positioning and a lot more. But I hope that was a good overview to start with.

Vincent Pietrafesa: No, it's a great overview and I love that. You don't even think that there's a B2B aspect of it, everybody knows out there I love B2B, that's my area. So I love hearing that. Nicole, how did you get into marketing? We ask every one of our guests this question and it's not always a straight path to marketing. Tell us about your journey there.

Nicole Brooks: Yeah, sure. This is going to take us back quite a few more years than I care to admit, but I really started my career more on the advertising and sales track and then somehow found my inaudible really into marketing as a whole. So if we go back to the beginning, I first studied journalism at Michigan State University, but that was back in 2008, right in the middle of a recession, so I was scared out of journalism, switched my major to advertising and really planned to go the agency route in Michigan. Detroit has a lot of great ad agencies in the auto business, Chicago's right around the corner. But when I graduated I received a LinkedIn message from the co- founder of a media company and they were looking for advertising account executives. So I interviewed with them over probably Skype at this point on a Friday. And by Monday was moving to Indianapolis to join this company. And it was really quick and at that point I thought I was interviewing for a normal established media company, maybe that agency I was looking for, but in reality, when I showed up on Monday, it was very much a super lean, brand new startup. I was employee 10 or 15, we were working on the other side of a bagel factory because one of the investors owned this bagel factory. I don't know, it was like pure lean startup mode. And again, really started in the advertising sales space. And that one's really interesting and that's really, even though it was advertising in sales where I learned a lot of transferable skills that would later get me into marketing, such as how to really hone marketing messages and develop sales enablement and tell a story and focus on the art of persuasion, which really is what marketing is. And then knowing the audience that we're talking to. So I did that gig for a couple years and then we were ready to find some warmer weather. We decided to move down to Austin in 2014 and even then, it was a really growing, bustling tech scene. So I took those transferable skills that I had learned and my startup experience and my startup background and found another startup here in Austin and joined as the first marketing hire at a startup called Own Local. And as the first marketing hire someone without any technical marketing experience, it was quite learn on the job, jump right in the deep end, I quickly became a marketing generalist and really focused on all areas of marketing from demand gen, email, events, thought leadership, PR, CRM management, employer brand. Really, you name it. And that's defined my marketing career to this day is really having more of that generalist skill set, being able to just look around and find problems that marketing could solve and fill gaps. So I did that there. Really, again, honed my marketing chops. And then similar story, joined another startup called Opcity as one of their first marketing hires, being a little more sophisticated this time, doing a lot of the same things, really going down that generalist path. And then over time Opcity was acquired by realtor. com and I was able to find more problems that needed to be solved in the organization. And most recently that was filling a gap on the brand and the customer marketing side, which neither of those functions really existed on the B2B side at realtor. com before I took over this role.

Ajay Gupta: Well, that's a great varied background, especially with the startup experience. What's the key differences between marketing at a startup versus marketing at an established company?

Nicole Brooks: Sure. I would say differences, we could describe them as night and day, but a lot of things are actually very similar. And I would say there are pros and cons to each. With startups, it's all about finding that product market fit and rapid growth. So it's focusing on anything that will grow revenue and grow user growth because that's what investors want to see. So demand and lead generation, it's sales enablement, driving revenue is the name of the game. So I've started out three times as a marketing one man show. And in this space you really become that generalist. You learn how to have a high output of work, you learn how to build by our partner really strategically, since you really can't do everything in house, that's really crucial at a startup. And because you don't often have a lot of the specialties in house, it ends up being about just breadth of activity rather than going really deep into a couple areas. And then as you know, the startup grows that there's a natural progression that happens of you first start on growing the revenue on the customer base and then you start to focus more on the customer marketing side and enabling the growth. So I would say that's my experience really on the startup side. And then after joining realtor. com and seeing how a much bigger company operates, it's not just about focusing on growth numbers. You have the freedom and the breathing room to really focus on long term strategic planning and on areas specifically like brand. I think a lot of startups don't have the luxury of that being a key focus for them. I think brand growth could happen naturally at startups while you're doing other things, but really being able to have that space to focus at a bigger company is really nice to have. And then having more resources and more specialization means you can get a lot more sophisticated in a lot of areas of marketing, which is really great. Like your paid advertising gets so much better, your SEO gets so much better. Again, your brand marketing gets so much better. So I've been really interesting to compare that to. And again, a lot of the channels are the same, a lot of the end goals are the same, but it's how you approach them that ends up being really different and having the larger company in that space is a luxury that I'm enjoying right now.

Ajay Gupta: That's awesome. Nicole, what's the favorite part about your work?

Nicole Brooks: There are so many things, especially here at Realtor. I've been able to really carve out my own career path here. Like I mentioned, it's all about finding problems that need solved. And at Realtor, because brand and customer marketing weren't a focus in the past, there are so many areas of opportunity to have a really big impact both internally and externally. I would say on the B2B side, we operate very lean. So while we have more resources than back in my start days, we still need to be pretty scrappy and pretty smart with our resources and individuals at Realtor on the customer side, it's so good to have a really, like I said, big impact, which is something that I really enjoy. And it's great to be able to influence such big meaningful change in an organization and then externally with our audience, it's important work that we're doing.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Nicole, I want to get back to you on the Indianapolis Bagels. No, I'm kidding. As a New Yorker, I'm like, what does-

Nicole Brooks: Oh no, you don't want to know.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Bagel tastes like? That's like, my goodness. That's not one of my questions. But as a New Yorker who's very snooty about his bagels, I was like, " Indianapolis bagel? Oh my goodness." But no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Nicole, tell me what you feel makes realtor. com different?

Nicole Brooks: Yes, of course. There's a couple things. So one is on the customer side and the industry side of the house, which again is my bread and butter. realtor. com is the only real portal that partners with the industry. We don't try and compete or intermediate the brokers, agents, loan officers that we work with. We don't hire agents in- house, We don't sell homes directly, we're not a mortgage company. And that's different than many of our competitors. We're also the only real estate tech company that has a relationship with the National Association of Realtors, which is huge. We share the realtor name. We only succeed when realtors and other industry professionals succeed. And again, that's not something our competitors can say. And then on the consumer side, consumers really want a company that they can trust is on their side and that can help guide them during one of the biggest purchase decisions of their lives. So at Realtor, we don't think there should be winners and losers in real estate. That's not how we look at it. We want to help consumers break down the barriers to getting into a home, help them make the right connections to the tools, services and professionals they need, and really create confidence through expert insights and guidance when and where they need it. So we're really here, again as that trusted guide for consumers where competitors often try to control and funnel consumers into their own products and services. Again, we don't have those products and services, we have partners, we're a marketplace, we connect the two. But again, we're not trying to compete either way or manipulate consumers one way or the other. We're just trying to give them the best experience and empower their decisions really.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, it's funny, you hear that on television, realtor. com, the National Association Realtors, it's like that stamp of approval that I is great to have and legitimizes it, which is great. Nicole, talk to me about the real estate industry during the pandemic. Just insane. My own example, I live in Manhattan, a lot of people during Covid leave New York City, it's like a ghost town. The suburbs, booming, everyone's buying. Fast forward, people moving back into the city, maybe they moved to the suburbs like, " Wait, there's like four restaurants here. What am I doing here?" And then there's 75 on your block in New York City. And so the prices are driving up. Just talk to us about how realtor. com and that industry was affected during the pandemic, how you kind of survived, pivoted, some trends.

Nicole Brooks: Of course. And what you just described as your experience mirrors more of the macro trends that we've seen. Obviously it's been such a rollercoaster throughout the pandemic, early 2020 when no one knew what was going on. And then you get your record low interest rates, and now we're seeing the rising inflation. We've got inventory shortages. The market's now shifting back towards a buyer's market. It's all over the place. And at realtor. com, we've really seen the pandemic redefine the meaning of home for people. People are really looking for more choice on where and how they live, and we're really trying to help them find that. So people, we all went a little inaudible crazy in 2020, right? People started to look for more space. To your point, getting out of the city, moving cross countries, moving to the suburbs, that was something we very much saw across the board. We also saw really Covid accelerated the real estate industry's adoption of technology. This industry can be very slow to adopt, but with the necessity of things like virtual home tours, 3D video really grew in popularity. And we at realtor. com had to adapt too and work with agents and brokers and other partners to help them create more of these kind of content through their listings to keep things moving. People also want to evaluate what it's like to live in a neighborhood and do their research online. So during the pandemic, we launched features like noise and commute time filters so people could really understand what kind of neighborhood they're moving into if they maybe couldn't see it themselves. We've done a lot of work on integrating digital lending pre- approvals as part of the online search process and offering options for digital closing. So all those things that weren't readily available pre Covid, and now they're starting to become more common, more available. But it completely changed the game. We're starting to see the markets even out. They're starting to shift again now. And the pandemic was an unusual circumstance, of course, but the real estate industry always ebbs and flows. This is something that's happened since the beginning of people buying and selling homes. There's been dips, there's been highs. So Realtor again, with our 25 year history, we're pretty well versed at this point in going through and riding out those waves and helping the industry and bringing them along with us. We really think for the agents and brokers, we need to help educate them and help them through these different times. Especially if agents are newer, they don't know how to navigate it themselves. And that's a big part of what we're really trying to focus on the brand side of the house.

Ajay Gupta: Nicole, talk to us a little bit about how you build relationship with your customers. How do you establish brand loyalty with them?

Nicole Brooks: Yeah, of course. That's such an important part of just our brand strategy in general and of the real estate industry. I mean, the real estate industry is based on forming relationships, and that's something we really take to heart and how do we connect our customers to our brand in an authentic way? And one of the biggest ways is just getting out and talking to customers and making sure we're really getting a lot of face time through things like trade shows are very popular within our industry. So we make sure we have very big presence, that we have a lot of people there both from sale, customer support, marketing, product marketing, that we're getting feedback and that it's really a two- way conversation. We have a whole industry relations field team that spends most of their time on the road traveling around to different industry leaders and connecting with them such like MLS associations and local associations and getting their feedback and opinions on products that we're planning and our future plans. And really being an advocate for our partners and our customers within realtor. com. It's so important to have the customer voice represented. So we have, again, a great IR field team. We have quarterly ambassador meetings with various influencers. We have monthly open houses with different customers just to really make sure we're keeping a pulse and we're doing what's best and we're putting our money where our mouth is when we say that we want to partner, not compete with our agents. We really want them to feel that. And that's how we really feel like we gain their trust, which in turn, if we're doing it the right way, should lead to customer loyalty. And it's interesting too, within the B2B side of the industry, we're not really shooting for exclusivity when it comes to our partners. So we know our partners tend to work with other portals, other vendors for things like lead generation, advertising, data. So we're not shooting for exclusivity, but what we are shooting for is to be their most trusted partner and the one that they turn to when they need help and again, when they need that partner. And that's how we see differentiating ourselves from our competitors and really driving trust and customer loyalty and why that is so important for our business.

Ajay Gupta: Nicole, the next one is one of our staple questions that we ask every guest. And I'll be really curious because you're so cheerful and upbeat about this one. It has to do with the amount of LinkedIn messages we all get. And I'm sure you get quite a few based on your title and the industry you're in. So what's a message that gets a response from you and what's one more importantly, that annoys you?

Nicole Brooks: Oh man, Ajay, you're going to put me on a soapbox for this one because this is a hot button for me. There is nothing that drives me more crazy than a poorly constructed inaudible sales message on LinkedIn that is just totally off faith. And you're right, I get them all the time. And I really think what drives me so crazy about that is just the majority that I get is just the lack of alignment and the lack of personalization. And sales folks will come on and message me on LinkedIn and tell me why their company is great and ask for an hour of my time without putting it in the context of what's in it for me. Why should I give you any of my time? And I think that's just a classic mistake that I see a lot of sales folks make on LinkedIn. And I know sales people have to eat, they're just trying to do their job, but adding just a hint of personalization and making sure you're reaching out to the right person is so important. I got a great message the other day that I opened and the sender started his message by telling me that his dad roomed with Mark Dantonio in college. And if you don't know, Mark Dantonio is a long time Michigan State basketball coach. So inaudible connected. I was like, " Whoa, that's really cool. Very interesting." I could tell he at least looked at my profile and it got my attention. It was personal, it broke through the noise. So any little bit of personalization, and again, just make sure, making sure folks are reaching out to the right people. I feel like there's so much wasted breath with folks coming to me on things that I have no decision making power over. So anyways, and it really does create a lot of noise on LinkedIn for me and has become a pet peeve.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Nicole, how would you respond if someone said, " Hey, Nicole, I see you went to Michigan. Go Wolverines!" You would bug out, wouldn't you? Because that's-

Nicole Brooks: Yes, block.

Vincent Pietrafesa: It's like ah, wrong school, pal. That'd probably you off, right? Nicole, switching gears a little bit there. I've been reading a lot and seeing realtor. com and I think they're doing some great things to promote diversity and inclusion. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nicole Brooks: Yes, I would love to. That is really an area that realtor.com is putting a stake in the ground and realtor. com is really committed to supporting and promoting fair housing within the real estate industry. This year we ran a massive initiative called Closing The Gap that coincided and really launched with National Fair Housing Month in April. But that is continuing of course, indefinitely, and it's really inclusive of all of our efforts and programming to bring awareness, education, and action around closing the gaps that exist in home ownership. With today's more than 30% gap in home ownership rates between white and black Americans. Obviously that's just one data point, but it's so critical that we as industry leaders and others in the industry come together and really work on addressing that. So we do a couple things here at Realtor. One is that we partner with diverse non- profit trade associations who are really aligned with that social mission that we have, such as the National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals, the LGBTQ Real Estate Alliance, the National Association of Real Estate Brokers, which is an organization whose members focus on expansion of generational wealth creation by black households through real estate ownership. Just there are so many really, really great trade associations doing a lot of meaningful work that we try and contribute as much as we can, and we really try and elevate their voices to our audience by inviting folks onto things like webinars, sharing our platforms, donating when possible, being available as resources for them at their trade shows when possible. We conduct research in collaboration with these groups. So last year we surveyed more than a thousand Hispanic consumers and released a big research report about the state of Hispanic home ownership, which I think was really meaningful and helps tell that story and uses data to show what a massive gap there still is. I think a lot of people don't realize that. And then for me on the industry side, really focusing and making sure we're providing resources to professionals to make sure folks understand fair housing laws, how they can be better partners, how we can promote different certifications and highlight realtors that have those certifications to our consumers. So there's a lot that we're doing from that marketplace perspective to connect the right people. And we do things like Fair Housing Fridays, where we'll release blog content, webinar contents, et cetera, just to really keep the conversation going and that's really, really important to us here.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, no, I love that. Thanks for sharing that. I did see quite a bit on that in regards to realtor. com. Nicole, before we get to know you personally here at the Marketing Stir Podcast, just finally, any exciting news coming out of realtor. com that you're excited for in the future, the rest of this year and into 2023?

Nicole Brooks: Yes. Well, there's always something new and exciting coming down the pipeline, but one thing I'll highlight as an upcoming launch is we're really making a lot of investment right now and focusing a lot on the seller side of the real estate process. So as I mentioned before, historically realtor. com has been a place for buyers where buyers want to come and search for homes, and we're trying to change that. We're investing a lot in what we call our sellers marketplace, which makes it easier for sellers to understand the equity and value of their home and their various options to sell. Because right now, with the introduction of so many new technologies, there's a lot and it can be very overwhelming for sellers. So again, with our platform of choice and being an open marketplace, we want to make sure we lay out all of those options and make that decision really easy for sellers. And of course that comes with connecting sellers to the right professional in the real estate industry. So on the B2B side, we're really investing in products to help agents win more listings as well as to do better with the listings that they have. So we're really developing robust lead generation products, branding and listing promotion products and listing data and intelligence tools that can tell realtors what they need to do to help their listings improve and be the best partner they can for the seller they're working with. So last year, realtor. com acquired a company called UpNest, which helps connect sellers with the right agents for them. So this acquisition will play a really big part in our strategy in the next calendar year. And on the marketing side, it gives us a really great opportunity to think differently about how we go to market with products. Typically our go- to markets focus on launching a product and driving usage of that single product. But because realtor. com has less awareness and trust on the sale side, both with consumers and our industry folks, we're really going to position realtor. com as a valuable sell side partner. And rather than just promote a new product, we're going to really tell that whole story and launch an awareness campaign and then we'll get more narrow and focus on the specific product offerings. But it does give us a unique opportunity to, again, look at this launch holistically, which we don't often get to do because we have such great awareness in the products and in the space that we already play. So it's going to be, I would say, really fun and different for us on the marketing side.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That's awesome. So keep a look out for that, ladies and gentlemen.

Nicole Brooks: Definitely.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Nicole, for fun, what do you like to do? You're in Austin. You moved to Austin in 2014, that's before that big boom of all the people like me from these other cities moving there. What do you like to do for fun there? Tell me about some of the hobbies you have.

Nicole Brooks: Yeah, of course. My husband and I joke that we are the couple of endless hobbies. We can't sit still. As you mentioned, we're in Austin, so there's no shortage of outdoor activities for us to keep ourselves busy with. We're really big foodies. There's a great food scene here in Austin, so we're always out trying new restaurants. I'd say I do a lot of yoga, that's something that I'm pretty dedicated to. And then my favorite just day to day hobby when I'm just hanging out is reading. I'll read anything from bestsellers, non- fiction, business. So that's probably my favorite way to just pass the time.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That's awesome. No, I joke, as Ajay always jokes that I don't read a lot, so that's amazing. That's what you do in Austin. That's what I imagine people, good food, yoga, exploring.

Nicole Brooks: Exactly.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I think we spoke to someone on the podcast, they have a farm up there of horses. I'm like, " Yep, that's it."

Nicole Brooks: Very Texas.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, very Texas. That's amazing. You lived in some other great cities, that's amazing. But no, this has been fantastic, Nicole. We really appreciate your time. Check out realtor. com. You heard of it, but go and check it out. If you haven't or check it out again. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been very insightful. That's Nicole Brooks, the senior director, brand and customer marketing at realtor. com. I'm Vincent Pietrafesa. That's Ajay Gupta. This is another episode of Stirista's The Marketing Stir. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk soon.

Vin: Thanks for listening to the Marketing Stir podcast by Stirista. Please like, rate and subscribe. If you're interested in being a guest on the podcast, please email us at themarketingstir @stirista.com and thanks for listening.