Larry Shaffer (Insperity) - Become Human

Speaker 1: Big data has gotten too big. Whether you're a B2B marketer or a consumer brand, your data needs to be viable, relevant, and accessible so that Stirista can help you retain customers, acquire customers, and make it personal.

Vin: Welcome to the Marketing Stir Podcast by Stirista, probably the most entertaining marketing podcast you're going to put in your ear. I'm Vin, the producer here at Stirista. The goal of this podcast is to chat with industry leaders and get their take on the current challenges of the market, and we'll have a little fun along the way. In today's episode, Larry Shaffer, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Business Development at Insperity, joins Ajay and Vincent this week on the show. He talks about how advancing the brand, finding direct leads and creating opportunities are valued strategies. Give it a listen.

Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Stirista's, the Marketing Stir. I am your host Vincent Pietrafesa. I got an extra little pep in my voice today. That's because I was at a New York Giants game yesterday, so you would imagine I was screaming. They tied. Let's see what happens when this episode comes out. They tied the Washington Commanders. And that was fun. I got to be there with LG Ad Solutions. And Serge, one of friends of the program there, Serge Matta, so I thank him if he's listening, but I got a little extra... I got to get that voice ready, Ajay. That's Ajay, we'll get to him in a moment, but it's so great to be here. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening. This is the Marketing Stir. Let's pause one second to talk about Stirista. Who are we? This is all we do is you talk about us ourselves for like 14 seconds. We're a marketing technology company. We own our own business to business data, business to consumer data. We help companies access that data through our technology to help them get new customers. Who couldn't use new customers, right? I'm their vice president of B2B products and partnerships and also your co- host. Thank you so much. Email me at vincent @ stirista. com. That is how confident I am. I just gave you my email address. And thank you for emailing, and thank you for coming up to me now at conferences, ladies and gentlemen, and telling us how much you love the podcast, and also discovering Stirista, we appreciate it. Let's discover our co- host, ladies and gentlemen. I will see them in person in just a few short days for our third annual summit. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. AJ Gupta. What's going on AJ?

Ajay Gupta: Hey Vincent. Congratulations on the nice fantasy win you had over Blaine.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That's right.

Ajay Gupta: Looks like I'm going to pull through as well, so we might see each other in the playoffs.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I was thinking about that. I had this through... I'm not getting ahead of myself, I'm like, " Man, what a cool episode would it be if me and Ajay went head- to- head in the playoffs?" And-

Ajay Gupta: Well, let's make it the finals, playoffs might not be pay- per- view worthy.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I know. But oh man, that would be great. Yes, I put a hurting on Blaine, our Senior Vice President of Data Solutions here, and there's a big, big win, and I got to just see him in person, so I'm sure that's softened the blow. Took him out to a nice Italian restaurant here. But it's great to be here. Are you excited for our summit, Ajay, coming up?

Ajay Gupta: Yeah, it's going to be a big week. We got our board meeting tomorrow and we got Chicken and Pickle Wednesday Summit. On Thursday, it's a packed week just like we do it at Stirista.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Absolutely. Flying out, and I'm in New York City, so I saw the weather is going to be about 79 degrees, 75. That's a blessing because it's freezing right now here in the city, but it is great. Ajay, we've got a great guest today and you just learned that this guest is very close to where you... We're headquartered in San Antonio, so maybe a lunch meeting. This guy's great, so you're going to... Maybe a lunch, get together, hang out, right? I'm so glad we got to meet him and I know that you're going to love him. Ladies and gentlemen, let's keep a warm Marketing Stir welcome, the Senior Vice President of Marketing and Business Development at Insperity, ladies and gentlemen, Larry Shaffer. What's going on Larry?

Larry Shaffer: Yeah, Vincent, Ajay, it's great to be here. Looking forward to get to know each other a little bit better.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Absolutely.

Larry Shaffer: It would be fun.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, no, it's great. Larry and I had already talked and we haven't met yet, Larry, but hoping to change that. But it's been really... I've always known of Insperity and I wanted to talk to you and have them share your story. A lot of uniqueness here because let me tell you, your... Let's just get back to your title for a second, Larry. Your title... It's the title... You don't see the two functionalities together a lot, so Senior Vice President of Marketing and Business Development. It's like two of the things where you don't often see that together, but want to hear more about that. But first, Larry, tell us about Insperity and then the role that you have there.

Larry Shaffer: Oh, great. Insperity began back in 1986 by two founders. We are in the human resources business, and so in those early days it was all about just providing basic payroll and benefits to small businesses. And over the 36 plus years now, we've developed into what could be called a full Fortune 500 HR department, and we make our services available to small and medium sized businesses. And the company has grown over the years. I'm about to have my 24th year anniversary with the company, and have been able to grow up here. And we will do about 6 billion in revenue this year and all across the country in 41 major markets. And business is really good.

Vincent Pietrafesa: We love hearing that. And Larry, your role, what are you doing there? I love the combination. Tell us about some of the day- to- day, if you will.

Larry Shaffer: Absolutely. Well, in regards to bridging and integrating marketing and business development, it really made sense. I have a fellow senior vice president who's over sales and he's got an organization of almost 900, getting close to a thousand sales professionals, sales management, sales operations. And we are a sales driven company. And since we are selling a service, it is not a transactional purchase. Every sale that takes place, there is one of our full- time sales professionals, frontline salespeople, that are interacting with a prospect, taking them through the value proposition and bringing them to make a decision to either go with us or not go with us or maybe later, you know how that goes. And so in the marketing world, all of the traditional parts of marketing is certainly what we do in regards to advancing our brand, digital advertising, traditional media, but we also have the business development side where I say we are creating opportunities and we're creating environments where our salespeople can thrive out in their markets. And so it works together beautifully and it's something that I really enjoy doing.

Vincent Pietrafesa: And Larry, do you have experience in both areas? And then also, tell us the origin story. How did you get into just marketing in general? So first, both skill sets, previous experience, and then how you got into marketing.

Larry Shaffer: I appreciate that because I'm not a career marketer. So my path was maybe a little bit unique from many others. I started out that 24 years ago as an entry level sales rep.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Wow.

Larry Shaffer: Then moved into sales management, and did that for about four years. And then I made a transition over to overseeing one of our service centers. So I transitioned over to the service side as a general manager and was in service operations for about eight years. Then I had a stint in corporate business development. So that was looking at partnerships, looking at acquisitions and working in that arena. And what happened about six years ago, our previous head of marketing departed, and I just kind of brought together this unique mind, this unique experience of being in sales, and being in service operations, and actually corporate development, and also having led organizations. The organization really needed a infusion of fresh leadership. And so by bringing all those together, I had a great team with great marketing skills, and I really have learned from them in regards to the nuts and bolts of marketing. But they really brought me in for the organizational leadership skills. And what I have found is, I feel like I finally landed in the right place. I love marketing, I love everything about this organization, and I feel like everything I did before was just to prepare me for this position.

Ajay Gupta: Larry, tell us a little bit about how you guys are going about marketing. What are some of the channels and strategies that you focus on?

Larry Shaffer: Good. I'd love to. We kind of look at it in... There's three main IM impact areas. First of all, just advancing our brand. That's the first area. The second one is creating direct leads. And then the third one, which I just referred to in business opportunities is creating opportunities, a rich selling environment for our salespeople to work in. So advancing the brand, I think we'll talk about that a little bit more here in a moment, but when it comes to advancing the brand, everything matters. Not just your formal media and not just everything on digital inaudible, everything related to how the marketplace experiences our company, which has an awful lot to do with all of our people that work out in the marketplace. So advancing our brand and then creating direct leads is really, really critical as well. And we are seeing that grow significantly. We have... I would say over the last three or four years we've been tinkering and adjusting and testing in regards to both digital advertising and becoming more successful with digital search and moving into other arenas where we are giving the marketplace the opportunity to raise their hand and say, " Give me a call." So that's what we mean by creating direct leads, when someone through our website and through other means says, " I'm a prospect, I want to talk to you." But that really accounts for about 30% of our business. The other 70% comes from creating these opportunities, which is channels, marketing into key alliances and key associations, and something that we have developed pretty significantly over the last five years as we have about 1400, maybe even up to 1500 micro events in all of our different markets around the country. And so those little micro events can be networking events, they can be specialized dinners, they can be a speaker, thought leadership, we use even axe throwing, wine tasting, cooking classes, we do all kinds of high touch professional events to create this environment that our salespeople can bring prospects to. Our clients can come and introduce new prospects to us. And it's not a hard sales event, not at all. Actually, it's just a soft networking event where we bring together professional people that can get to know each other. And we don't even focus... It sounds funny, but we don't even focus on getting referrals. We focus on getting the right people in the room and good things happen.

Ajay Gupta: Larry, that's great, we have very similar philosophy to you, Winston and I do a lot of networking and trade shows, so pandemic was a little hard for us to be contained, but we're glad that the world has reopened.

Larry Shaffer: Oh, we are, we are. Yeah, we're very excited about that. We did figure out how to do some of these events on Zoom. You take a tequila tasting, you send out some of the tequila ahead of time and you know how all that goes. And so we pivoted, but nothing like being in person-

Ajay Gupta: Absolutely. So Larry, what's kind of the biggest challenge you're facing in your role, whether it's in marketing or bis dev?

Larry Shaffer: Well, all of the functional areas in my role are working well... All the functional areas that I just mentioned. When I think about the biggest challenge, it's getting enough face time with my people to let them know I care about them, that I support. And when I say my people, not just the ones that report to me, but I've got about 140 people in my organization. But you just get buried in the work. I spend a lot of time with my direct reports, which there's seven of them, but just having more time to get to know the 140 employees in my organization. I wish I had more time to do that. And even when I'm here at the corporate office like I am today, walking the halls, I've always got in the back of my mind a presentation coming up to the board or a meeting coming up, and it can just be distracting sometimes from stopping and looking people in the eye, finding out how they're doing, and interacting with them on a personal basis. So I just find that to be a challenge sometimes and I wish I had more time to do that.

Vincent Pietrafesa: And Larry, that kind of goes into one of the questions we like to ask a lot, and especially you kind of hit on it where keeping morale up during these last few years, and I know we certainly did a lot of events and similar, like you just said, just interacting and maybe doing company jeopardy with everyone on it, for example. But how are you keeping up that morale? Any tips out there or struggles, right?

Larry Shaffer: Well, we are fortunate that we have a great culture. And our great culture attracts the kind of managers that really not only get the job done but care about people. And so we really hire with that mindset, or I really look for people to lead in my organization that are both very, very confident and they keep our people accountable to executing and to doing excellent work. But at the same time, they're very kind and caring people. And we have... That starts right at our CEO who has built a culture of both excellence and care working together. So that... In many ways, it just kind of happens as a flow of our business. But what I find is you still need to have scheduled programs. I hate to call them programs, but you know what I mean. You schedule time to enhance morale. So what we do in our department is we have quarterly meetings, we schedule them in advance and we encourage everybody that can possibly physically be here at the corporate office. And it turns out about 80 to 90% of my department can be here on one particular day and we have an open breakfast together in our break room. I get to have... I schedule one- on- ones with all of our new employees that started over the last quarter.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Nice.

Larry Shaffer: We have a two hour meeting, the state of our organization, different people get to share about what they're working on. And then we have a happy hour that night. So we just dedicate a full day to everybody be being together. And kind of like Ajay, you were referring to beforehand, I mean when people get together now, they appreciate it more than inaudible, and the energy and the excitement of all getting together and doing these things. So that's one thing that has really helped to keep the morale very, very positive here.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. And Larry, I think Insperity, because it's dealing with the HR aspect, HR has been very important and very pivotal I feel like all the time, but especially these last few years. I'd love to get your own sense of what separates Insperity. Why should a company adapt Insperity?

Larry Shaffer: Yeah, that's great question. We define our brand promise as we have a depth and breadth to service that is unparalleled in the industry, and we deliver that service with a level of care that is absolutely unique as well. So we say that, and I understand, our competitors may say the same thing, and that's fine, that's understandable. There's a relativity to what I just shared, but it starts with the heart of our people, and that is that we believe that we provide a depth and breadth of service that is unparalleled. And there's a sense, again, that comes from our CEO and the amazing culture that we have, the level of care that our people have for our clients, businesses, small and medium sized businesses who we believe are the heroes of our economy, the real champions to our country, our small and medium sized business leaders. We want to help them to succeed. And we are so passionate about it that we believe that when we help our small business and mid- size companies succeed, that their communities are actually improved, their communities prosper as a result of our clients being successful. So there's a real passion that goes behind that. And certainly, I say that, but our client testimony will really bear the fact that quite often they'll leave and go to a competitor for maybe a little bit lower cost, and we have a high percentage that come back and say, " It's just not quite the same."

Ajay Gupta: inaudible a large company like yours, how do you kind of humanize leadership, and how does the company culture come into play?

Larry Shaffer: Well, the company culture is really, really critical. For us, it's everything. And I guess I can't emphasize this enough because I keep bringing it up, but our CEO, who I've mentioned several times, Paul Sarvadi, is also the person that founded the company back in 1986. And so he's kind of a unique individual, really an entrepreneur at heart. But to be able to take the company from startup, going public through 6 billion in revenue, it's pretty unusual for someone to do that. But he has been able to do it obviously because he's a great business mind, but he's a genuine person. And so employees have said from time to time they see him in the elevator and he interacts with them just like they're the most important people in the world. And that filters down to the rest of our executive leaders who seek to do that as well. Ajay, it's just really, really important that leaders become human and share their lives and become honest and look the employees in the eyes and ask about them and care about them. And it creates this culture where our employees tend to have a tremendous amount of faith and trust in the executive leaders and support. And what comes out of it quite often is that discretionary effort. They care because they work for executives that care about doing the right thing and have alignment with their values. So it's very important.

Ajay Gupta: A lot of our listeners are young professionals that are getting started or even college students who study marketing. Can you tell us what you think are some of the important skills in today's day and age that somebody needs to succeed in the field?

Larry Shaffer: Yeah, I'll go back to what I mentioned before, and that is that there's no shortcut for committing yourself to be excellent inaudible, okay? I mean, to be highly skilled, to give yourself and dedicate yourself to being highly skilled in the fundamentals of your business. If you love marketing, then it certainly fits into that. Maybe you can skate by without applying yourself to your marketing classes and inaudible classes if you're still in school, or maybe you can try to depend on your personality or your certain skills. And I'm saying go above and beyond of really, really being dedicated to being an excellent practitioner in what you do. And then in addition to that, the other key skill that I know both you, Ajay and Vincent know, because you've been in business a while, the ability to deal effectively with people is inaudible. And quite often our students may not learn that at the university or campuses, or it may not be taught the same way that it is other particular classes and skills, but it's absolutely critical. So find someone who you see is does really well with working with people who exhibits strong influence, persuasion, has a great persona, and find out what they do and how they think about working and influencing people. So those people skills are real.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I like it. I like it. People's skills are very important. I tell everyone that. And Larry, let's get back to something you said earlier. You talked about brand building. One of the first things you said, " Brand building is important for both companies and leadership." But how do the two differ in your opinion? And also, what are the benefits to employees building their own personal brand? Again, it kind of flows into what you said earlier and then the persona you just talked about. Love to hear your thoughts.

Larry Shaffer: Yeah. Well, they certainly are different. To me, they're different contributors to the one brand. In other words, when it comes to building your corporate brand, everything matter. Everything matters in regards to alignment of your traditional marketing, your digital marketing, your website, your press releases, everything should be integrated and everything's important. But you go beyond that. What an amazing contribution to brand our people can make when they really apply themselves, and when we really give them the tools and educate them to let them know how important they are as an individual to promote your brand. So I mean, how they talk, how they act, how they treat customers, how they treat stakeholders, how they even treat vendors, how they treat each other, how senior management treats them. Everything feeds off of building a great individual brand within your employees that supports the corporate brand. So as an example, what we have been working on for the last several years, and probably the reason that you found me out on LinkedIn is we have... I'll say it this way, a couple years ago I said to myself, " I don't really have any reason to be at LinkedIn." Is what I told myself because I'm not looking for a job. So why should I spend time on LinkedIn? Well, that was incredibly shortsighted at that time. And what I have discovered since is that when I put myself out there, not always talking about Insperity, but putting myself out there as an individual, as someone that can maybe share my content, share my skills, share my encouragement with other people, people automatically connect me to Insperity. So I don't even have to sit and sell Insperity or promote Insperity. I just have to be a good contributing citizen to the LinkedIn community. And I find that my personal brand grows, and as my personal brand grows, I want it to be a good reflection of Insperity. So it's just another contributor. So for us, we've got about 4, 000 corporate employees. If we were encouraging all of them to function at the highest level in regards to social media, to be great citizens on social media, to be contributing, to be encouraging each other, to be building each other up, I mean, they're just an expression of Insperity as well. And it gives us that extra brand boost in that regard. So all of it fits together. It's different strategies, but they all contribute to a great brand.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Oh yeah, no, and I'm glad you say that because I always tell people the reason we started this podcast... I was just on another podcast, Casted, they were talking about it, and it's like for thought leadership. You won't hear me mention advertising in this company. It's like, " Oh, this podcast is sponsored by..." No, it's not. We don't take advertising. It's just thought leadership, getting to hear people's thoughts on what's been happening. And a lot of great advice comes off of this podcast, and people thank me for that and Ajay for that, where they're like, " Thanks for getting the viewpoint on HR." We had on Regal Cinemas, they're like, " Well, we wanted to know what was happening with movie theaters because we like going to movie theaters." That sort of thing. But Larry, your passion shines through. You clearly... You've been there almost 25 years. The passion's still there, I'm sure, from day one. So talk to us, what is the favorite part about your job and your work?

Larry Shaffer: Well, I'd have to say my favorite part, and it's not just in marketing, but it goes back to the different organizations and different parts of the company I've been able to work in. But I mean, my favorite part is always seeing my people develop, seeing them grow, seeing those, especially that report to me, getting promotions. And that's just what is so incredibly gratifying. Certainly, we've had a great year this year. We've got some great results happening in the marketing department, and that's... Don't get me wrong, that's very, very fun and that's very gratifying. But when I think about when I retire, what I'm going to look back on is not just the metrics that we achieved, but more importantly the people that were a part of my group that grew and expanded and were promoted and had more opportunities.

Ajay Gupta: Larry, I'm sure you get a lot of LinkedIn messages. So one of our staple questions is around getting to know you a little bit better on the personal side, what's a message that gets an answer from you and what's one that really annoys you?

Larry Shaffer: Ah, Ajay, that is a very, very good question because here again, two years ago I wasn't on LinkedIn, so I didn't get all those messages, I just would get occasional emails. But I think you can imagine almost like both of you with my title, a lot of people want to sell me stuff. And I'm very empathetic because I'm a sales guy at heart and I love sales people and I love what they do. But I'll start with the annoying part, it's getting the same thing over and over and over again without any research, without any creativity. Immediately, as soon as I accept their connection, they send me a note that says, " Hi, thanks for connecting. Can we get 15 minutes together or can we do this?" And whatever it is, it's just... I get 10 to 15 of those a day and it makes me feel bad that I can't respond to all of them. I can't take on all those meetings, but it's just really not possible. But every once in a while, Ajay, there will be someone that will show that they've done a little bit of research. They mentioned something about me personally, something about my profile, or they found out something somehow and they bring it up, whether it be one of my volunteer activities or my love for golf or whatever it might be, they bring it up and then I have this sense of obligation to respond to them because they did something extra, they did something innovative. And that kind of pulls my heartstrings, I guess you might say.

Ajay Gupta: Larry, speaking of looking you up and volunteering, we did spend a little bit of time on your LinkedIn profile, as you can imagine. So we noticed volunteering is important to you. And this one particularly struck out to me because it looks like you've done some work in Africa. So we'd love to learn about that, especially because my parents lived in Africa, in Zambia for five years, so I had a chance to spend a lot of time there.

Larry Shaffer: Well, yeah, I have been involved with both here locally in my community as well as... That was through my church. We did some trips over to Africa where I was able to work with community leaders and Christian leaders and teach some principles to them. Well, whether it be going into the prison, which I've worked also with Prison Entrepreneurship Program where you go into the prison and you work with inmates and help them to develop skills of entrepreneurship, even job interviewing skills. I might spend an afternoon doing that, or for Africa, those trips were usually about two weeks. So I would book those ahead of time. So whether it's one afternoon in a prison or whether it's two weeks in Africa, when the time comes, it's like I don't have the time to do it. You know what I'm saying? And that's the way it always is with doing good things like volunteer work, there's always this job that weighs on you. But I will tell you every time when I push that aside and move forward and get involved with contributing, you walk away from it and you're so enriched. You go there to try to help other people and it works out to where you're the one that feels incredibly blessed, encouraged, and rich for doing it. So I would just encourage everybody to rip the bandaid off, take some time off from your busy schedule and go and do that and it'll really make a difference in your life.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That is great advice, Larry. We do... Thank you for doing that, the volunteer work. We're a big believer of that here at Stirista, as well as people will come to learn, each summit, we will raise money for an organization. And we have one coming up very soon. But yeah, we loved that about you as well, Larry, just doing some research on you. And we're glad you're on LinkedIn. We wish you were there longer, did only this couple years, but we're happy you're there. Larry, as we wrap this up here, let's get to know you, you mentioned golf a little bit there. What else do you love doing with your spare time? Hobbies?

Larry Shaffer: Well, at my age, I do have grandkids.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Come on. Oh, wow.

Larry Shaffer: Yeah, I do have four grandkids. I've got two grown daughters and they each are married and have two kids. So yeah, I can't help it. It's like when I think about... When I have spare time, I love more than anything being with my grandkids, and they kind of range in age. So I've got some that I can take golfing with me, a couple of the older boys, or play tennis, Ajay, I know you love hiking and those type of things. And then I've got two others that are a six month old little girl and then a two year old boy. And so that's just... Hanging out with them and being with them. So I certainly enjoy that a lot. My wife and I have been married for 40 years. So my wife, Leigh and I, we love to try new restaurants and love to eat out and that's something that we enjoy to get doing as well.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That's amazing. Yeah. Congrats on 40 years and all the grandkids. That is amazing. So Larry, before we depart, just a closing thought, anything you'd like our listeners to take away from this episode?

Larry Shaffer: Well, one thing I'd say, especially Ajay referred to maybe some of the younger listeners, what comes to mind is like quite often when I get together with some of the younger folks in my organization and I say, " What do you want to do? What do you want to accomplish? What are some of your professional goals, your professional aspirations?" What I find is they usually immediately talk about their next promotion. If they're a manager, they want to be a senior manager. If they're a supervisor, they want to be a manager, whatever. They seem to think in those terms. And what I would challenge people to do is to think much broader and much bigger than that. And what I do... I said, " Is that really your highest aspirations?" And they begin to reflect, " Well, maybe I would like to do this." And I push them further and say, " Well, why do you envision being the CEO? Oh, I've never thought about that. Well, what about at least a senior executive, do you think? Well, that would be nice." So what I'm saying is that I have to draw out of them the ability to really think big in regards to who they are and what they can accomplish. And what I did, whether I was smart or lucky or whatever, but way back when I started as that sales rep, I began reading the books about leading large organizations, had to think like a CEO. And I just began to think like that. I didn't necessarily ever aspire to be the CEO of a multi- billion dollar company, but you know what I thought? What's the downside of being prepared to do that? What's the downside of knowing how my CEO thinks and being able to understand what it means to be an executive? It's only going to make my journey better. So I guess what I want to say is just like someone at some point has to sit down and design a Lamborghini, that you got that design team, they had to design with great detail, think in terms of that final ultimate place you want to go, and think big, and wherever you land is going to be much better than if you just thought in regards to just that next step.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I love that, Larry. Thank you so much for your thoughts. You're very inspiring. And keep up the amazing work in your personal life, your volunteer life, and your professional life. So ladies and gentlemen, that's Larry Shaffer. He's a Senior Vice President of Marketing and Business Development at Insperity. Check him out. Check out the episode. We're glad you're listening. Ladies and gentlemen, that's Larry. I'm Vincent, that's Ajay. This has been another episode of The Marketing Stir. Thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon.

Vin: Thanks for listening to the Marketing Stir Podcast by Stirista. Please like, rate, and subscribe. If you're interested in being a guest on the podcast, please email us at themarketingstir @ stirista. com. And thanks for listening.