Katie Kregel (Mitel) - Down the Path

Speaker 1: Maybe big data has gotten too big. Whether you're a B2B marketer, or a consumer brand, your data needs to be viable, relevant and accessible so that Stirista can help you retain customers, acquire customers, and make it personal.

Ben: Welcome to The Marketing Stir podcast by Stirista, probably the most entertaining marketing podcast you're going to put in your ear. I'm Ben, the producer here at Stirista. The goal of this podcast is to chat with industry leaders and get their take on the current challenges of the market, and we'll have a little fun along the way. In today's episode, Katie Kregel, the VP of Global Corporate Marketing at Mitel, chats with us about how data is the key to better marketing when keeping up with competition, especially in today's market. Give it a listen.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Stirista's The Marketing Stir. I, of course, am your host Vincent Pietrafesa, the Vice President of B2B products and partnerships here at Stirista. It is so good to be talking to you right now. It's summertime. Enjoy the summer or the time this comes out. Maybe the summer's almost over, but still enjoy it. It's so good. It's so fun this summer. Then we get into September back to school, and the chaos happens, at least for me with two children, but that's okay. Ladies and gentlemen, just pause for one second just to talk about who Stirista is. That's it. We don't take advertising in the podcast. We just talk about ourselves for a few seconds. We are a marketing technology company. We help companies with our B2B data and our B2C data that we have, utilize that data to access it and to get new customers through email marketing to our own DSP, which focuses on displaying connected TV. Email me vincent @ stirista.com. That is how confident I am. I just gave all of you my email address and boy, are you using it, as I say on the podcast, is it always for the purpose? I want it to be? No, not at all. It's just random. Sometimes it's to tell me how much you enjoyed the show. Sometimes you're trying to sell me, it's okay, but I gave you the email address. The other thing I'm extremely happy about, as I always say ladies and gentlemen, because a few things are coming up, what is it? Fantasy Football season, right? And I always love battling this next guest. He's not a guest. He's our co- host, ladies and gentlemen, and he's coming to visit us here again in New York City. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Ajay Gupta. What's going on, Ajay?

Ajay Gupta: Hey, Vincent. Pretty crazy summer, and actually this morning I went to my daughter's open house for kindergarten, so summer is coming to an end, even though the Texas weather would tell you you otherwise, but she is starting kindergarten tomorrow, so my baby is going out of the house now.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I know you're empty nesters. No, you have a long way to go, but that's amazing. I know. You definitely start now here in New York City, school starts like September 7th, at least the public schools where my son goes, he's in first grade, but yeah, Texas is already back. That's crazy.

Ajay Gupta: Yeah, our school district is particularly starting early, but I think they get extra breaks like fall break and such that other Texas schools don't. But yeah, it feels a little early, but definitely have to mentally prepare for it from tomorrow.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, well that's amazing though. Kindergarten's a big step. I remember when my oldest started kindergarten just last September, it was a big step, so that's awesome. That's when the podcast... September. It's almost September. It's back. It feels great. You'll be here for the US Open. We're having a cool little event. Can't say that really on the podcast. I don't want people hitting me up and trying to come to this event. Only very, very small amount of people get to come. I'm sorry people. We have a lot of listeners. Yeah, so you'll be here.

Ajay Gupta: I am still holding out for getting a wild card or something, so maybe one extra spot will open up in the suite.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah. Let's see. Email us ladies and gentlemen, if you want to be a part of the... Well, okay, you can still email us again, promise that you'll be part of this suite, but I'm going to love it. This is great. It's a big event that happens in New York City. All of the best tennis players are here in Queens, actually in Queens, New York, where that goes down. But it'll be good to see you the last time you were here. What a fun time. What a great time. One of the things we did is we're like, Hey, me and Ajay are going to be at a happy hour on Stone Street, and people were like, why don't you tell me? Why don't you... Word travels fast, so maybe we'll do one again, but a little bit earlier this time that people like when you're in town, people when it when you're here.

Ajay Gupta: Let's not forget a shout- out to Chinese tuxedo, that wonderful Chinese restaurant you took me to.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Chinese tuxedo. It's amazing. I can't believe we got in. I wish we would've said something about them before we went there. Maybe we would've got a little bit off the meal maybe, but we sure didn't. I was glad that you were here and glad that you'll be back here, but here, I'm just glad today. Let's call this episode Vincent's glad, because why? We have an amazing guest, an amazing guest. She's fun. I already talked to her already. Of course I did. And she is fun from a company called Mitel. Well, do you know Mitel? Well, you soon will. Ladies and gentlemen, the Vice President Global Corporate Marketing. Katie Kregel, what's going on, Katie?

Katie Kregel: I'm so glad to be here. So thanks so much for the invite.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Now, Katie, we'll talk about some of it later, but going back to School, parenthood, I know you could relate to a lot of that and probably it is the season for you. I know your kiddos really into soccer, so is that all year round or that's September how it normally is?

Katie Kregel: Yeah, so it kicks off really in the August season. My kids are already back. They started on their teams this week and now they're full on into multiple practices a day, multiple practices a week, I should say. Games, tournaments, it's full on, but as a kid you're always like, oh, yay, summer. And then as a parent you're like, oh my god, summer. So I am very glad that my kids are about to go back to school. I've got one who's going into middle school this year and a third- grader, so they're heading out and doing bigger, better things, and I will be glad to have the quiet at the house too.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, I know there's no certain things where, as a parent, I remember when I was a single guy and it was daylight savings time, and it's like you get an extra hour at the bar and then now you're like, oh, sleeping is going to be off. This is ridiculous. Why do we do this? What's wrong with the world? But anyway, so I just remember-

Katie Kregel: Perspective shift that you can't keep up with it, but it hits you every time. So it's all good.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Exactly. I remember you telling me about the family and soccer there, but Katie, let's get into Mitel, right? For all those amazing listeners that we have here in The Marketing Stir, tell the listeners about Mitel and then your role within the organization.

Katie Kregel: Sure. So Mitel is in simple terms, a business communications company. So we offer phone systems and collaboration clients, contact center software, video conferencing, audio conferencing, all the things that businesses need to stay connected internally and with their stakeholders. So at the end of the day, we think about it as especially in this world of post pandemic, well the work from home situation that we're in now for many, many people, it's really what's helping businesses and organizations around the globe stay connected and do what they do best. So we want to make sure that communications are such a central part of it and that that experience is really easy for them. I lead our corporate marketing team, which for marketers out there is really all those traditional mar- comm type functions. So I cover everything from our PR and social media teams to our content marketing, to our corporate communications and creative services. So it's all that see and what you see and what you hear from Mitel out there in the world falls under my purview. But my experience in marketing has been pretty broad and this is really the sweet spot that I am most passionate about.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Well, that's awesome, and a question that we ask all of our guests, Katie, is because it's never the same answer, how did you get into marketing?

Katie Kregel: So I always wanted to do the whole marketing thing. I majored in advertising in college, so I knew that was a path that I wanted to take. Where I really stumbled into was tech. And so I had an internship when I was in college, and it was one of those things where you had to scrap for internships in the mid two thousands. Job markets weren't great and got a gig working at a tech startup and doing marketing for them, and that evolved into ongoing startups, acquisitions, all sorts of stuff and follow the path. And now I'm here. So sort of intentional, sort of not intentional.

Ajay Gupta: That's great, Katie. Yeah, we have a lot of people that are not from that marketing path, so it's good to see. You always knew what you were going to do.

Katie Kregel: Yeah, it was that or be a doctor, so quite wildly different things and I think I landed in a good place.

Ajay Gupta: So tell us a little bit about what are some of the channels and strategies that you are using today for marketing and what's working very effectively?

Katie Kregel: Sure. So like many marketers nowadays, especially when you're in the B2B space, you have to use multiple approaches. Mitel sells really heavily through a reseller channel. So a lot of our activities are indirect in terms of enabling our partners with the campaigns, the events, the data packs, the reporting, the different tech insights and tools to be able to sell on Mitel's behalf. And we spend a lot of time and effort dedicated to that, but that's not the sole thing out there. Our partners have their own brands. It's important that they understand Mitel messages and that the customers that they're selling into are also going to see us out in the space. So we do a fair amount of analyst relations press and social media activities. We're really also looking at different account- based marketing nowadays that are tapping into the intent- based buying that we may see from either prospects who we've engaged with or even people within our own customer base who may be looking to add on technologies or switch to different technologies that we offer. So we really try to, what's working I would say is the mix. So not just one thing, especially in a complex technology sale is going to do it. What we are trying to always do is find all of the different touch points, whether that's the partner directly, an article that somebody might've written about Mitel that we earned from a media perspective or a retargeting ad that we leveraged as part of that intent- based buying execution. We're really trying to think about how do we continuously stay in front of those people to make sure that Mitel is staying top of mind because we know that it isn't linear. The buying cycle for complex tech sales just isn't linear. It's all over the place. So if we're not there in all of those places, we're missing the mark.

Ajay Gupta: It sounds like ABM is an important part of your strategy, how important being a data company ourselves, how important is data in driving those marketing decisions for you?

Katie Kregel: Oh my gosh, that's a great question. And I would say that data has become one of those things, especially in today's market, that if you aren't looking at it as a marketer, you are not going to be able to keep up with the competition. We have done a lot, I would say over the last handful of years at Mitel to really double down on our database. I had an old CMO who talked about it as you can do good marketing or you can do random acts of marketing and the data is really what allows us to do better marketing as an organization. And I can give a couple of quick examples. So we've as a company really been focused on how do we target the right verticals? When you sell something like business communications, anybody can be a client, right? Businesses of all sizes need phones or chat solutions, video solutions, businesses of all industries can need that. So how do we prioritize the limited resources that every company is dealing with to make sure we're putting our efforts into the right places? And as marketers, budgets aren't endless. People aren't endless in terms of the people on our staff. And so how do we make sure that we're really being smart about the choices that we're making and bringing the best value back to the business? And we've been leveraging this triangulation of market data plus Mitel's win rates in different verticals and Mitel's, what we're calling visibility, how many at bats are we getting within individual spaces to try to really zone in on where we have the highest potential and where we need to put our efforts. So if we're winning a lot but we're not getting to the table very often, that's an area where we need to boost awareness, drive additional ABM, target into let's just say healthcare for an example, more healthcare providers. How do we then tailor those messages along the way to make sure that the data is really working through our execution tactics? And so we're looking at it both the macro level and then also on a more campaign- based level in terms of things like multi- touch attribution tracking. So I was talking about that lack of linearity that we see in the buying cycle for B2B in that tangled web of spaghetti, it's hard to assign the value of an ROI to just one touchpoint, right? So how do we make sure that we know what those content pieces are doing? Are people even reading them, right? That's one thing to look at, but are they helping move things down the path faster? Are they helping our sales teams as a reference point? Can we assign more touches to a certain piece of content rather than another piece of content so that as we make more decisions, we can do more of what's working and set aside the kinds of pieces that aren't? Because a lot of it is like trial and error, as I'm sure you guys really know. You stumble upon something even such as this podcast that all of a sudden it takes off, and how do you keep doing more of what's working? So we are really using data in different ways now than I have seen over the course of my career. And personally I think it's exciting. It makes it something where you're going away from just the gut and into things that are actually really meaningful contributions to the business.

Vincent Pietrafesa: And Katie, you mentioned ABM, you mentioned the use of intent. Is that some of the experimental marketing that you're going to start doing? Are there other areas of experimental marketing a little bit away from your foundation that you're going to start doing here at Mitel?

Katie Kregel: Good question. One of the things that our teams are right now really exploring, and I'm sure a lot of people are in the market, is how we leverage AI to really help and in a couple different ways, primarily in terms of how do we get more content out there that's more tailored to the audiences that we're going after. It's not just a stick it through the funnel and then hope it comes back and make sure that it's good. Because as we're seeing from the AI perspective, there's search ramifications for it, there's alignment to whether or not it's including your competitors in the messaging. There's lots of different things that you got to look out for, but we're seeing it help us really get some of that foundation going faster so that we can accelerate the content that we're bringing to market. And we're also seeing it add a lot of value for us on the translation side. So as a global business, we don't have huge teams in every single country that we operate, but our customers speak those languages, want tailored regional content. So we're leveraging AI in ways to help us bring more content to more audiences without necessarily having to staff up at the same levels that we would've in the past. So that's an area that we're really exploring and trying to see where does that help us move the needle in terms of driving more customers to our website, driving longer engagement on our site, those activities.

Vincent Pietrafesa: No, it makes complete sense. And Katie, this is something that's near and dear to my heart. The B2B space B2B marketing, right? I mean Stirista does a variety of B2B, B2C, but me in particular B2B. So I wanted to ask you what drew you to a role in B2B? What do you like about it and how is it different than B2C?

Katie Kregel: That is such a good question. I stumbled into it. I'll say in terms of being drawn, drawn or not drawn, I stumbled into B2B, but I've stuck with it, I think, because it's the complexity, it's always multiple layers of challenge to solve and new things to learn about that I find just so fascinating. It's never boring. And marketing in general, people who go into marketing are the people who don't like to be bored. They're always moving and trying the next thing, but B2B especially, you have all sorts of different organizations that you have to balance that level of similarity across them with the nuance of the different stakeholders within the business or even the different types of businesses in different industries. So there's all these levels and layers that you can keep peeling back like an onion and keep improving your marketing skills. And I think probably the thing you asked a little bit about how it's different and how it's similar from B2C. And I think the other interesting thing for me about B2B marketing is that there's still a B2C component. Even though you're selling to a business or you're marketing to a business, you are still talking to a person and that person is a consumer of other things. Their personal experiences are shaping how they expect to engage with your company, how they expect their experience to be, how easy it is, the level of service that they're getting. And so you have to think about both them as an individual and the business environment around them and how those things pair up. So I think it goes back to just that level of problem solving and complexity. It's just constantly interesting to me.

Ajay Gupta: One of the customer loyalty is important both in B2B and B2C, but in B2B in particular, especially in your vertical, there's a heavy reliance on customer loyalty. So what do you do from a marketing perspective to make sure your customers are retained?

Katie Kregel: Sure, and you're spot on. I mean, the way that the world has come around nowadays, customers are changing. They have an easier way to change providers than at any time ever in the past. Now in our sales cycle, a lot of systems are not a quick turn, quick buy. So we have the challenge of making sure that we're staying relevant to that customer throughout a longer contract cycle. And we work really extensively in two ways, just like I was talking about at the beginning with our channel partners to make sure that they're enabled with the latest add- ons information, ways to optimize the solutions that the customers have to make sure that they're continuing those personal touch conversations. That's really the value that a lot of them are bringing to those relationships is a deep knowledge of the business of that particular customer. And so if we're enabling them effectively, they're able to take that out on our behalf. Similarly, we have a philosophy around customer lifecycle management and the fact that customers need to be touched from both the vendor and the partner throughout the course of their lifecycle so that they're hopefully choosing to move forward with us as their needs change. It could be an acquisition, it could be growth, it could be something that might change their communications needs, a pandemic perhaps, where we want to make sure that the experience they're having with Mitel is simple and easy. So it's built into how we manage our product communications and different bulletins and outreach that we do to customers, customer success teams that we have, and then the nurturing process that we work on from the marketing side to help make sure we're touching customers with the latest tips and tricks along the way, whether that's from our blog or success stories that other customers are sharing, to be able to bring those values to life in terms of what they could be doing with their communications to take them further along that cycle. So we want to make sure that it's really both educational and value adding rather than just selling into their face. We want to make sure that we're enabling their business to communicate better rather than just buying more stuff from us.

Ajay Gupta: Katie, one of the things about your career that's remarkable is the number of acquisitions that have happened across your career, and we actually did two of our own. So this one is close to what we've been doing too, but what advice do you have for people that are going through acquisitions?

Katie Kregel: That is a great question and Mitel is actually in the process of hopefully acquiring should everything go well, hopefully acquiring another company at the moment. So I'm deep in the throes of acquisition mentality right now. I would say two things. One, be patient. Acquisitions are hard. They take time, they're complicated, and there's always a couple dominoes that come from every change that's made. And so I would say if you're somebody is a part of what's going on, be patient with it. It will sort itself out. The more important thing I think though is to stay open- minded. I feel like change is naturally hard. It's hard for humans, it's uncomfortable. The levels of uncertainty that come along with acquisitions are not a place that most people are familiar with or if they are familiar with it, they have maybe some past experiences that have been difficult. But what I have seen is that staying open- minded about the opportunities that can present themselves, the different things that you'll learn even through the acquisition process that can help you in your career later are really valuable and can really help you a lot professionally. I will say that I would not be probably in the position I am today if it weren't for keeping an open mind about the acquisition process. My philosophy was always like, well, let me see what happens, and if I get into a new role and that's not serving me anymore, then it's time to move on, but let me give it a chance. Let me see what I could bring to this organization or what the organization could do for me. And that has really helped me on the trajectory of my business and broadened my network massively as well as brought me a lot of new skills that I would not have had otherwise. So I think it can be a really valuable professional growth opportunity if people let it.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That is great advice, and as you hear and see so many companies doing that, acquiring companies and merging together, as Ajay mentioned, our own company having acquired a few companies recently. So very good advice. Katie, we talked a little bit about the pandemic, and of course we try not to bring it up too much because we're trying to put that in the past, but we mentioned it. Talk to us how the needs of Mitel's customers were impacted, if anything, and how you had to shift during that time.

Katie Kregel: Oh, sure. I mean, Mitel was... Communications became a super central part and the communications technology was, I don't know, part and parcel to really the pandemic experience, I'll say, with so many organizations having to just switch overnight to working from home, the demand for the solutions that we offer increased dramatically, and so did the competition. There were a lot of providers that were dabbling in the space, let's say, that blew up overnight. So as a marketer, you had to think about both the balance of, " Hey, this is awesome. People want what we have." And a lot of other people are offering it too. So how do you differentiate yourself? How do you focus on getting the word out about what you are offering while really not trying to take advantage of the situation as well? We had customers who are hospitals who had to transition to parking lot based facilities to be able to manage the volume of patients that they were getting. And what Mitel really focused on was how do we make sure that those customers are taken care of? How do we make sure that the doctors or nurses who are in those parking lot facilities that aren't really facilities that don't have a phone on the wall, how can we make sure that they're able to communicate with the right people within the organization to support the patients that they have? In many cases save lives. We had a lot of retail centers who were immediately shifting to online, how do they manage from a standpoint of having service people in a facility to dealing with a contact center type situation where they're going to have online- based support or phone- based support that maybe they weren't prepared for. Schools, emergency notification messages and being able to make sure that parents and stakeholders were engaged, that students could do virtual learning. So there's so many different ways that communications changed almost overnight for organizations of all kinds. And I mean Mitel's focus during that period was really first and foremost serving the customers. They had immediate needs that couldn't wait, their stakeholders were impacted dramatically. And then it was really a matter of like, okay, how do we take those stories and lessons and apply them back into our product offerings to continue to make them easier? How do we tailor our positioning to the learnings that we gained through that experience where the problems that businesses had at that point in time were wildly different than what they had had before? That's a complete shift in your marketing message, and it's still shifting, right? Because some businesses are going back, other businesses are not. Some are going to probably be permanently in a hybrid model, and the priorities and ways that you need to talk to businesses have changed dramatically as a result of the pandemic. So it's been a really interesting experience to go through, not only personally from a pandemic perspective, but really professionally as well.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah, I mean if you touched on a few industries there that were really impacted and really had to pivot quickly, I mean, you talked about healthcare. I live in Manhattan. No healthcare area was more impacted, I think than 8 million people, the epicenter here in Manhattan and having hospitals have to just pivot and react in different ways. And so let's stay on that topic there. In your experience, Katie, you worked for different companies, you have also worked with a variety of different industries. How has that helped you? What have you learned working with several different industries, not only as a customer, but as an employee as well?

Katie Kregel: Ooh, that's a good question. So I've always been in tech, or at least for a really long time, but the different kinds of tech. I've been in financial services, I've been in mortgage, I've been in consulting, I've been in moving, even moving has technology. So I think that some of it goes back to why I like business to business. You're always learning something new and different industries have these different nuances to them that you have to really pay a lot of attention to as a marketer. But probably the thing I've learned the most is really about asking the right questions upfront. I think it's marketing to any industry or communicating to any stakeholder. It's really easy to assume that what you are getting into. But where I see a lot of times teams stumble is going straight to tactics and really just thinking about, okay, we think we know this, so we're going to hit them with some emails and then we're going to do a webinar and then we're going to throw some ads out there. And it's like those might be the right things, but are we clear on what our call to action is? Are we clear on what they're thinking right now? Are we clear on why we're doing this in the first place and why should they care? So I think about it a lot in that context of go fast or go slow to go fast. If you pause, you ask the right questions up front, then regardless of what industry you're talking to, you can really get into the right solutioning by thinking about it upfront. And that's become really important, especially as you're seeing things like macro environments shift and the things that you thought you knew no longer apply. And even in the context of just thinking about my team and the work that they're doing, how much it's going to contribute to morale if they have to do the work over or if the work isn't successful. And so I'm always encouraging people on my team to kind of like, don't be afraid to raise your hand. Don't be afraid to ask those questions upfront because a lot of times they aren't being asked and there may change the problem you're solving entirely if you dig a little bit more upfront and then have a better understanding of what that baseline looks like. It sounds so basic, but it makes a huge difference and it's something that I've seen in countless industries. People just skip over that step. So that's probably what I've learned the most.

Ajay Gupta: Awesome. Katie, one of our staple questions here has to do around LinkedIn. I'm sure with your title and all the places you've worked, you get a lot of unsolicited messages, so would love to know what's one that actually gets a response from you and what's one that really annoys you?

Katie Kregel: I have a good example of one that came in not that long ago where the person, the rep used the subject line of her email was a direct phrase from my LinkedIn bio, and it was something that I recognized immediately as my own words that she had put in, which made me, I'll be honest, I didn't really engage with the email just because of all of the other things going on or with the LinkedIn requests. I think I got both, but I noticed it, I read it and it made me pay attention because I could tell that she had put in the effort, she actually knew what I did, she actually knew my role and she had done her research. And so for me, that automatically in that quick moment tells me that this is somebody who, if I was interested in this solution, would actually be giving me the service that I want as a buyer. On the flip side, I'll say what annoys me is when people clearly haven't done their research, and usually it's like, I talked to your boss and they told me to connect with you, and I've seen it where it's like, okay, A, you're going over my head and B, you don't even have the right boss's name. You actually didn't do your research. So no, I don't think you talked to my boss at all because that's not my boss, and I don't think that you're probably going to be the vendor that I want to work with, or at least the rep I want to work with. So my takeaway is do your homework. People who are out there soliciting, and as marketers, that's what we want to be able to foster too in the teams that we support.

Ajay Gupta: I was in a sales seminar a few years ago, and one of the techniques they teach is using a common name like a John and saying, John told me to reach out to you. So that way you can make your own guesses on who John might be.

Katie Kregel: Right? Yeah. Well my boss's name is Venkat, so that is...

Ajay Gupta: Yeah, that might be a little tougher.

Katie Kregel: To be thrown out there, but yeah, so I don't know. I get why, right? But to me it says a lack of respect for the person you're trying to engage with.

Ajay Gupta: So Katie, we like to, as we were wrapping this up, get to know a little bit of your personal side as well. So besides, you're clearly very passionate about marketing, but what else do you like to do in your free time? Any hobbies?

Katie Kregel: Sure. So Vinson talked this a little bit at the beginning. I don't have a lot of free time at the moment because my kids are super involved in sports. So I do the whole soccer mom gig, but when I'm not working or not hanging out at soccer fields, I'm a fitness junkie. I love my Peloton spin classes and yoga classes. I love to garden. You don't get a ton of gardening in time here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but I try to take advantage of what I can. And I recently moved, so I'm doing a ton of home improvement projects right now, so that takes up a lot of time. But yeah, I like to stay active so when I get a chance, I like to catch some live music too.

Vincent Pietrafesa: That's awesome. Yeah, having being a new homeowner myself for the first time, yeah, the home improvement projects, I'm just like-

Katie Kregel: Are never ending.

Vincent Pietrafesa: I'm looking at Pinterest, I'm like, I've never looked at Pinterest before. I'm like, I was like, this is an amazing, that's an amazing.

Katie Kregel: You're like, but I really like that rug.

Vincent Pietrafesa: Yeah. I was like, that's amazing. And they don't call them couches, it's sofas. I learned that we had a guest on, and I was like, oh, so furniture business, couch. He's like, it's sofa. Couch is a four letter word. Anyway. But what's funny, Ajay, you mentioned that use a common name like John or Jim, in 15 years, those aren't common names anymore. It's going to be like, Hey, Camden told me to reach out to you. My son's name is Hudson. Hayden. It's like, that's going to be the names, right, John? I haven't seen a John and the person named John in like seven years. It's crazy. But those are great examples there. So Katie, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story about Mitel. Check out Mitel. Ladies and gentlemen, check out Katie, you better get her boss's name right. Katie is the VP Global Corporate Marketing at Mitel, Katie Kregel. Thank you so much. I'm Vincent Pietrafesa, that's Ajay Gupta. This has been another episode of The Marketing Stir. Thank you so much and have a great day.

Ben: Thanks for listening to The Marketing Stir podcast by Stirista. Please like rate and subscribe. If you're interested in being a guest on the podcast, please email us at the marketingstir @ stirista. com and thanks for listening.